Jim Saliba Dives Into how to Develop Impactful Leaders

Welcome Chop nation to another new week, which you all know what that means. Another new exciting episode. I missed you guys. I know it's only been a week but I'm excited to dive right into it introduce our new guest speaker and to provide relevant information so you all know what that means. Let's chop it up Welcome to your top rated global podcast that is your one stop shop for everything entrepreneurship, self development, and smart investment decisions. This podcast is hosted by owner, Dr. And creator Dustin Steffey were blessed to have accolades that include a 2022 nomination by the People's Podcast Awards, in the category of business money donated to two amazing causes cystic fibrosis, and the Boys and Girls Club. Lastly, global recognition of gaining top 50 podcast in four countries. Without further ado, let's chop it up. I have Jim on. I am not going to butcher his last name. Hill, Hill, Hill Hill, say it for me. So I don't butcher it. So I've Jim on. He's a certified Coach and Trainer, very good public speaker. And he has a wealth of experience, including MBA, an MBA and over 30 years of experience in the leadership world. So Jim, welcome to traveling with fire. How are you?

I'm doing great. Thank you for having me on. I'm really excited to be here.

I'm excited to have you on and I'm excited to address a topic that I think is under addressed in my opinion.

Yes, I think leadership has a lot of information out there. But it's very confusing. There are more books about business and leadership than I think anything out there. But they're all isolated topics, because leadership is a huge topic. What I tried to do, actually, with my book, when I put out there as tried to draw it all together.

I think depending on who who speaks, right, the leadership journey is different for everyone. So like for me, as everyone knows, I still haven't broken the chain yet from my normal nine to five. And so I have a boss. Be that as it may. I mean, if your boss likes you great if he doesn't like you, great he or she right? Because then you either don't promote or you do promote but leadership, I think, in my opinion, when I look at people, right? You don't work for the company, you work for people. And if you don't like who your leader is, then I don't think it works out very well. Or, for example, I dislike the companies where maybe you're an employee that is an excellent employee, but you did something wrong, right? Something happened. So that resonates with everyone and forever, you have a black mark on you and you never promote I don't like that either.

Something you said in there really resonated right? Often you're not working for the company, but you're working for your direct manager. If you get along really well. It's a great thing. But if you don't, this is why people leave people generally don't leave companies, they leave their manager. So I've seen lots of data out there. It is so true.

Yeah, it's definitely insane. I know we're gonna dive into a lot of different topics. But before we do that, I want to I want to pump the brakes a little bit, okay. And I want people to get to know you. It's important, I think, for people to be able to resonate with who's talking right, and depending on how they're listening, if they're listening in the car, they don't see you. So let's let's kind of just clue them in on a few fun things about you and kind of what led you to here.

Okay, well, I I started my journey in software development, I was an engineer, grew up through the ranks became a manager. And what I really was exciting for me was the intersection between business and technology and what we can do with that. So when I became a manager, I wanted to learn how to lead how to be better, but I didn't have much information out there. Started doing all my own reading, got books, went to seminars actually went back to school to get my MBA, but most of it was on my own dime and my own time. Luckily, I did have tuition reimbursement for for school, the big one but it was is really my own motivation to go out and do this. And that's what really helped me grow to be a VP at one point in time in a $4 billion organization, then I went out on my own. And I went from having a huge team to being just three people, me, myself and I.

And just kind of continuing it, right? I look at I look at your journey and my journey. And we all have different journeys, right. So with that being said, we all have different perspectives on defining leadership. So for me, for an example, I define leadership as an individual or a pair of individuals, or however many, right what whatever the case may be, we'll just do individual for now, an individual that has the skill set and capabilities to help foster a culture of different direct reports, to be able to create success and help them to promote into the same leadership roles. So it's almost like a mentor of some sort. But with a leader, you also have a little more responsibilities. Not only are you mentoring and fostering a culture, but you're also trying to drive the business depending on what the business is, and their culture as well and go to a common goal. I know that's an elongated response. But that's kind of how I think of it.

Yeah, so that happens. All the time, people get move up when their career and their, as we were talking earlier, there, the technical expertise that they have becomes a little less important because they need to be able to manage and lead people while the people are doing the technical parts of the job. So they move up for reasons that they understand the business and the technology that they need to be in. But they don't understand yet how to lead, build that culture that you're talking about. And some people make the bridge and some people don't. And often my clients that I talked to feel stuck, because they're having a hard time making that bridge and I help them move forward with it, start thinking differently, more broader about the business and how it all works. Without that, you're not going to be able to make it happen.

I think another important thing to reach out to and I, you know, you know me, I think analytically is there's a difference between being a leader and being a manager. Okay, I definitely know that there's a distinct difference between it sometimes is blended together, and people think of it as the same, but I do not, I think of it as two separate things.

It's definitely two separate things. A classic view of it is that a manager does right things. Now does things right, a leader does the right things. So it's kind of looking at different things. A manager, for example, in a larger organization, may not need to know where the whole company is going strategically. They're running a team, they do what they do. And they're trying to make those tasks happen as efficient as possible. A leader is committed to helping move the organization to its future state, its futures goals. So and how how we do that is very different a manager managers tasks tell you what to do. When the Doom a leader is going to tell you about the goal. And they only depend on you to figure out how to help us both there.

I also think between you and I, that there are different different levels of leadership too. So when we look at leadership, if your managers doing their job, right for the people under the manager in my mind, right, you're fostering a culture of leadership down below. So you're developing those leaders to be even greater leaders as they move up in the ranks to actually foster that culture you were talking about right to drive the business to its future state. However, what I'm seeing in this day and age and correct me if I'm wrong, because you have way more experience than I do. What I'm seeing is he have managers that are micromanaging, per se, and they're not fostering this leadership culture. They're telling you everything that you're doing wrong wrong, and not not really helping you to do anything, right. And it's creating morale like declines. I mean, I'm in a company right now where there's a lot of change going on. And if we have the right leaders in place with this change, I mean, we can explain this a little bit better. And make sure we're fostering the right culture. But the message we're sending is different. Lots of managing in a different way. And I just think that things can be a little bit better, right. And this is not to downplay the organization that I work for, for the people that do know me, it's more or less to call out. Like, there's a different way we can approach some of these things to create success, right.

So I see this a lot as well. Somebody who is really good about at their job, we make them a manager, and we hope that they're going to help the team be as good as they are. But what happens is, we don't help that manager understand the new roles. So what starts to happen is that manager says, I'm here because I know how it works. I was successful, therefore, you should do it my way. And there becomes the birth of micromanaging. I'm the smartest one in the room. I know how to do it, right? And also forcers the mindset of if you need to get something done, you need to do itself, right, all of that forces, that that micromanaging piece, to get beyond that and start helping people understand their job from a coaching point of view, one of the new things that are out there as managers as coaches, and it kind of twists the mindset of, instead of me telling you what to do. I start asking more questions to help you understand what you need to do and make that happen. So that there is a good book out there called the Coaching Habit, which helps with

we will be right back after a quick break. Hello, chop nation, I hope all of you are enjoying the guests and content we share weekly. Now, I need a favor from all of you. There's a ton that goes into making a successful podcast. And most of this can't be done without your support. So please head on over to your favorite social media platform. And please follow us. This is important so we can communicate important updates to all of you. Also, we love hearing from all of you. So please drop us a comment and let us know how we are doing. Lastly, if you haven't left us a five star review yet please head on over to your favorite platform that you listen to your podcasts on and drop us a review. We really do appreciate all of you and the continued support as we look forward to dropping more fun and relevant content. Low chop nation Dustin Steffey here, our partner over in front row performance has some great things going on. Currently, infernal performance is your number one destination for the most exclusive personal training in the world period. What you guys may not have known as Inferno is also a one stop shop for all of your apparel, supplements, training and meal prep needs. Currently, right now on the supplement side, they're running a package sale for $100. You can get pre workout, recovery protein, and a multivitamin. Or if you want to step it up and step your game up, let's go to the $200 package where you get the pre workout recovery reds, greens, multivitamin, fat burner, digestive enzymes and protein, please head on over to Inferno dot fit. That's www dot Inferno dot fit and support my boy Dante Moke over there with all of your training and supplement needs. Another thing that I think we see too and I had brought it up earlier is how about the person under the manager, the employee, right. been around a long time, but some things happened. Right. And so that person forever like blacklisted almost from being able to do anything or promote within the company because the manager or management team or whatever has a preconceived notion of this person just is never going to be good enough to be in the leadership role.

That does happen. Sometimes it's true sometimes it's not right but I believe Give everybody should have a chance. And that's why I'd like this coaching type of mentality of managers to help people move where they are. For example, when I first became a manager, and I had people under me, I had a one on one with each person, once a week scheduled once a week, my rules were this, it's only 15 minutes long, we have it once a week. If we don't, if we miss one, because things happen, don't have to reschedule, just go the next one. So now I know I'm gonna have two to three meetings with this person every month. It is not my meeting, it is their meeting, they schedule it, they need to make sure it's on the calendar, they should give me an agenda 24 hours ahead of time. So this way I can prepare and use their time, as as efficiently as I can. It's not for me, it's really for me to do better by them. And then the other thing is, I always put in the rule at least once a month, you have to have on your agenda, personal development. And I can tell you that it took a while to really get going. But it turned out great. And matter of fact, a few years later, when I was moving out of the group and into a different area of the company. I had one person who said, can we still have those monthly personal development meetings, even though you're not my boss anymore? Because it made a big difference for them. I believe coaching people is it and that's why I became a coach myself. I believe in it.

Yeah, that's something that I see in some of these larger organizations. So the organization I work for, does a really good job of trying to drive you to have personal development goals, where I think it falls short sometimes is actually driving those goals. You know what I mean? So actually, like, sat in meetings, like you're saying and talking about them more frequently, to be able to grow, instead of having a manager or leader saying, You need to fix yourself, like there's proactive things that are involved to help foster fixing whatever the opportunity is, because I don't want to call it an issue, it's an opportunity so

well, I always tell my people, your career is your responsibility. It's not really my responsibility. I'm going to help you do whatever you want to do. I'm going to help you. I believe it's my job. Not all managers do that. But truly your career is your responsibility. So I make sure we talk about it that way. When I coach them, and they come talk to me, their results are their responsibility. If they if we talk and we and you say Oh, Jim, that's great. Here's my activities that I'm going to do between now and next time we meet. It's your responsibility to get it done. I'll help you hold yourself accountable. But ultimately, it's really you.

Which I believe in that you drive your own career. And I get that I think where the shortness falls in is the checking in and making sure that the accountability is there.

Yeah, I think too many companies do this as a once a year or twice a year thing. You set your SMART goals, and we put them on the shelf, and we forget about it for the next six months. I don't think that's healthy for the employee or, or, or even me, for example, I was a leader early on during some of the.com explosion, and we were losing people like crazy in the organization going to startups. Because we we weren't giving people room to grow and be excited about their job. I used to even lend people out to other areas of the company. This was really good about a big company, because my employee had a desire of learning things that wasn't happening in my department. So I would lend them out to other departments now and then for a few hours a week so they can learn and get that experience. And and I can tell you that when I went to those other managers and said I was going to do this, their jaw dropped and they said how much is it gonna cost me what do I have to do? You're gonna give me somebody for a couple hours a week. Are you crazy? But those are the people that I that still contact with me that we talk all the time, years, years in years later.

Yeah, see, that's that's the culture that needs to be fostered is, is to the point where you're reaching out to these leaders on an almost like going through what the journey was all the way up until now. I mean, that's where, you know, you have some success, strong man, and I have people within my organization that I do talk to that, that do help me with that. Um, I, I just think that the most important conversation here is getting back to the basics, right, getting back to what, what should a manager or a leader do? And how do they do it as well as they can to drive what you were saying in the beginning, which is future results,

right. So when I help leaders do this, I have what I wrote in my book, the six step Leadership Challenge six steps for leaders to do over and over again, to understand where they are now, where their vision is, where they want to go and start putting an action plan and putting that action plan into action. But I have a four quadrants of leadership that I put together to help leaders understand things that they want to work on. And the first quadrant is about vision and strategy. Even if I am a middle manager within an organization, I should have a vision for my group and where my group should be and how we operate. And start thinking about how do I change my group and the culture to get there. The second quadrant is about execution, and experimenting, doing things, experimenting, learning from it, and getting your execution better and better. The third quadrant is about people processes and, and systems, the culture of the organization could be working for you, or it could be working against you, you have to understand your corporate culture and how to either move it or work with it. And then it's people do processes and systems in place. Often companies have processes that they put in place years ago, that will put in for some reason that was a right thing, then, but it isn't helping them now. So we have to constantly look at that. And the last quadrant is what we call executive presence. How do I how do I identify myself? How do people see me How well do I communicate? What is my network? What are the people that are helping me move? And what are the people not helping me move? And then of course, how do you put that all together? So we look at their soft spots in these different quadrants. And then we start putting a plan together, month by month to work on them.

So this systematic flow that you and I have been talking about, what's the success rate you've seen in in organizations and people following this, this kind of flow?

One on people follow this kind of flow, and they actually hold themselves accountable. It it works fantastic. Everybody sees some type of improvement. Most people that I work with See, see promotions or moving into bigger jobs and when other companies. The other thing that I see happen a lot. On the other side of the coin, if a manager is not moving up in their leadership, their leadership higher up are saying, well, my people aren't really stepping up to the plate and I need to move up. And I'll help them probably across a whole team. And that's a little bit different, because now they're sitting together when I talk to them. And it's often about getting rid of the silos, and how do we collaborate together? I find it really interesting how organizations talk about collaboration, collaboration, where team Oh, we all work together. But when it comes time to do reviews, it's all independent. So we incentivize independent growth even though we talked about team so much.

And with with everything that we've been discussing, I know that you've you've developed many leaders, with with with this plan that's put into place where do metrics fall into that because I think a lot of people sometimes times when metrics are brought up, they feel they feel as if they're failure if the metrics are bad, right? And what what metrics can you control? How much of the conversation within this leadership journey should be metrics versus development?

Well, you know, I'm talking to an engineer, I'm a data guy. So metrics are very important. But the problem that I see happen often is people use the metrics that's available, rather than the metrics I need. So sometimes you have to create the metric that you need. And the other thing is that there's metrics fall into three categories. One, are tasks, things that I do, I can measure if I do them or not, there is output. Did I develop a report that I suppose give out the sales numbers that I develop and push out software? Whatever it is, that's output, we can measure that easily? Outcomes? business outcomes, are lagging indicators, they're hard? Are they take a long time? Did I reach my financial goals? Are we growing our market, they take a long time. But you need to map these all together, I do tasks, so I get output, I need output so I can get out homes. Often they're not tied together. So I'm doing a bunch of work. And I'm outputting stuff. And I'm not moving my financial metrics at all. So it's about having the right metrics. And understanding that thing, they should all be working together, whether you're measuring your performance increase as a leader, or your business performance increase, it's getting the right metrics. And often, I call it a score board, instead of a dashboard. People create these dashboards with all kinds of numbers on it. But if you look at a scoreboard at a game, it has minimal numbers on it. And you know where we are in the game at any point in time. Right? So what are the right things and minimize the number of them?

Yeah, so you, you've made a comment, you're an engineer. So metrics and data are important. I too, like metrics and data, because I like to measure things. But sometimes there are external or even internal factors that aren't counted within those metrics. So there's more to the data than what meets the eye. And I laughed. I know, I was on mute, but I laughed when you brought up dashboard, because that's what my company calls our metrics is a dashboard. And so there are definitely lots of numbers. And for someone new coming into my company, for example, it is definitely a lot. Right. For someone like me, who's been around for a decade. It's second nature.

Yes, yes. So, but the thing is, we can get lost in those numbers. Right? I have all kinds of numbers giving me information. What is the right information that I need to make a decision? Right? I'm not saying get rid of all these other numbers, but there are the top ones that you need to pay attention to. And if it's not the right number, or it's not going the right direction, I believe more in trends, and then then the value of a number at a single point, right? Am I moving in the right direction? If it's not? Well, what's the data I need to know to figure out why it's not moving in the right direction? That's why I say they all have to map up. And, and again, it's nothing more than an experiment because we think putting out more software is going to get more sales. But that's not necessarily true. I have to put out the right software, I have to put out the software people want I have to get people engaged, what is the market asking for? Right without that understanding, just putting out software is not going to make my numbers look better.

Yeah, and you brought up something really important, you can get lost in the numbers really easily unless you know what you're looking for. And I think at that point between you and I, that's where someone like a manager steps in on what what the goal is for whatever the quarter, the month, the week, whatever and really try to teach on what to look for are certain times which the company I work for does a really good job at that. But still, like I said, it's a lot of numbers right? And if you don't know what you're doing Looking for it? You can get lost for sure. Right?

Right. Yes. So and and that's why I don't always like to look at numbers, I like to look at trends. It's more about patterns, patterns, are we moving in the right direction? Are we moving slower than expected? Are we moving faster than expected? That's, I think that's the big key that we need to be looking looking into.

Yep. And then another another thing that was brought up, while we're on this topic of numbers, and training, and all of that stuff is continuing to grow, right, continuing to educate yourself continuing to really take that bull by the horns, right. And, and own development as a whole. I don't think it stops with a manager, I don't think it stops with employees, I think the whole organization as a whole, or entrepreneur, for my entrepreneurs out there, even for single entrepreneurs that are running their own business, you still have to learn, stop to do things.

Our environment, our markets are changing every day. If COVID taught us anything, it's that life. And markets can change at any time very drastically. And unless we're willing to learn and understand that, we're not going to make it. There are many, many articles and blogs out there that talk about the five or 10 top skills of a leader, the top skills or two of them to self awareness, self development. Without those two, you're never going to get all the other ones that people talk about.

So what is your stance on continued education and learning? I feel like your stance is pretty big on that. If we're being honest here.

I believe that I will continue to learn something every day until I stop living.

I feel like that's me too. When you stop when you stop learning. That's when you're in a grave to me anyway, right?

Yep. Yes, exactly. I believe the same thing. Learning is something that we need to completely do. And as adults, we learn different than we were kids, when we were young and elementary school, we learned we were sponges, all we had to do was listen and we soak it in. Adults are different, were experiential, we learn through experience, we do something, we observe what happens, oh, shoot, if I put my hand in a mean, dog's mouth, I'm gonna get it and it's gonna hurt. Okay, I'll never do that, again. We do that all the time. We're constantly doing that. And to become a leader and grow your leadership, you have to experiment and try things out. Some things will work. Some things won't work. But you have to try things out. And what I say is experiment like a fifth grader. When I was in fifth grade, we did this fine science fair thing, we had to do the poster board with a hypothesis on top, the experiment we did, and did the experiment, prove or disprove our hypothesis. That's the level we should be doing and trying things out. I believe so many people go out on we're going to try this out. Then six months later, you'll ask them about it. Did it work or didn't work? Well, it's sort of kind of now you need a timeframe. A real if a hypothesis. If I do a think I'll get B, what's my experiment that it happened or didn't happen? And the shorter you make that happen? What's the simplest, shortest experiment I can do to prove or disprove that and allows that learning loop to come faster and faster?

I think something that you brought up that's important, too, is tangible time, right? Being able to have time measurements, per se, in in this change in in what you're trying to drive. I think that's so important.

Yes, yes. So, in my way, I create activities. I have a 3060 90 day plan and, and there's probably several different ones out there and I have mine that includes those timeframes, and kind of swim lanes across of each of my quadrants. So you're working on all those across time, but I also put in at the end of each 30 days is just the next 30 days, way too often people put plans together, and it kind of falls apart because we don't know how that plan is actually going to meet the rest of the world. We have our crystal ball. And mine just like anybody else's is foggy and cracked. And I can't tell exactly what's going to happen, we're going to take our best guess. But and we put that in our plan. But when we put it out into the world, and we start acting it, it may not go the way we expected. In fact, it probably won't. But what are we learning from it and to adjust? In fact, we just have the super bowl right? Both teams went in with a game plan of what they were going to do, but play by play, they adjust their game plan in real time, we should be doing the exact same thing.

I definitely agree with that one. And I'm glad that you use the Super Bowl analogy. I mean, you have two very highly competitive teams that have game plans that are going into it. And I mean, that game was an awesome game. I mean, very close game. So both game plans, were well coached, well executed in my, in my mind.

Yep. They both went in well prepared, they both went in with great coaching, they both went in with a game plan. All right. And it could have gone either way, because they were so close through the entire time.

And that's a big word that is thrown around a lot, right? execution, execution execution executing the plan. I think that's super important.

Yes. So the plan, executing the plan also must include learning and adjusting along the way. Because we put a plan together with our best knowledge. And it starts to change. And we get new data and new knowledge every day that the plan is, is in execution. So we start moving and changing it. I'm not saying change the goal, but you may change and tweak how you do things, right. Oh, god, it's taking a lot longer than we thought going this path? Should we take some scope out? Should we add some more people to it? What should we do? There's different things that we can do to help move the plan along. Or it may be I put this out in the market, and I thought the market was gonna love it. And Lord, and behold, they didn't? Do I throw it out? That I go the wrong direction? What do I need to do? So many companies do what I call decision by hippo decision by the highest paid person's opinion. Or there's value to that because there's an experience. But they're not necessarily the best opinion. So often, I see companies spend millions 10s and hundreds of millions of dollars to build a product, throw it out in the market and find out they missed the mark, where if they did small experiments along the way, it would have limit their risk. And they would have seen some money come in in the meantime.

I'm wondering all these new things. I liked that acronym that you just use, because it's so true.

It is it is by being more flexible, a, what we would call a business agility. It's hard. It's it's easy to talk about and harder to do. But that is one thing that I help organizations do is how do they do things in smaller increments, and limit risks and their exposure?

What would you say in your mind is the most important topic you're seeing right now, like this day and age post COVID? Well, I should use that term loosely post COVID COVID didn't disappear. But in this new world right now, what's the biggest thing that you're seeing? Or leaders like what's the biggest opportunity?

I think leaders need a lot more education early on. Look at look at it right now. Between 2022 and the first six weeks of this year 2023 200,000 jobs were laid off 200,000 That's a lot of jobs now and that two leaders in most of these organizations are now millennials, who never seen a recession in their adult life and now have to lead through it. Then add to that, that I don't give them leadership training until 10 years later when they need then later than when they needed it. So I'm calling that the perfect storm. And that couldn't be a problem for a lot of it smaller IT organizations, the big ones are going to might have enough money and things going on to live through it. But the smaller ones are going to have a problem.

Yeah, I see. I see that too. I, my dissertation was on the different generations in the workforce, specifically Baby Boomers to generation, x and y and all of that. And the biggest thing that I saw was, if we're not learning, so I'm a millennial, if we didn't learn from the baby boomers that were in the workforce that are exiting, or anybody before us, we really you're gonna struggle quite a bit, because we're raised around technology. So we think technology does everything. And a lot of the soft skills that were learned in generations prior to mine are not the same for millennials, right? The soft skills are definitely different and lacking in my mind.

I would agree with that, that the experience is completely different. We had technology to use as a crutch in many ways. But the world we live in, is moving significantly faster for you than it was for me. So the need for those soft skills and to be able to lead through it, I think are more demanding for you than it was for me.

I would have to say I agree with that statement. I definitely agree. And especially in a day and age where technology is quadruple than what it was back 1015 2030 years ago, a lot of workflows have changed to where there's a lot more work added on. Because we have technology to be able to mitigate some of that work to be able to do more, right?

Yes to do, we can do a lot more because some things are done for us in technology, it makes it easier. But sometimes, where we're relying on it too much, and we don't understand the concepts that are happening underneath, and we make assumptions that are working against us rather than for us.

Yeah, I'd have to say I agree with that statement 100%. If there was one key thing that you would like to leave with the listeners, so say we didn't explain any of this, like we weren't, we weren't on a podcast for an hour, discussing all this good information. What would that one thing be?

I believe if you want to grow as a leader, there's three things that you really need to focus on. As I said, self awareness. What's working for me, what's not working for me, what's holding me back, what fears are holding me back, because we all have the awareness of what's going on around me with my employees and so on. Self awareness is one because it leads you to what your needs are. self development, taking that and developing things that you need to grow and handle what's happening. And the third thing is don't do it alone. You know, we were in the new year, where everybody's going to the gym, and you say, oh, you should have a gym buddy to make sure you stay doing it. Well, this is the same thing. You should have somebody helping you a mentor, a coach, somebody to help you because there'll be times that you're going to struggle, and you need that extra person to help you through it. That's why I got into executive coaching to do exactly that, because I saw that need to really help people get to that next level.

I think that's some really good solid advice. And it leads us into a different conversation as well, which is advice. You have books, you have a couple of things to help people out with leadership. You're a coach, let's talk about that. And let's talk about how people can enroll your services or enroll you to kind of help them out.

Okay, that's great. I kind of put myself on a mission to transform the world of work. And although that sounds big and bold, when I work with a leader, and I'm talking to them, and I see that light bulb go off on their head and things clip, I know, I just changed his world aware, or their world of work, and all the people that work for them. So I do that at one conversation at a time, but I figured that was slow. And I wanted to scale. So I wrote the book, the six step leadership challenge. So people don't necessarily need to talk to me, they can buy the book off of Amazon, and and try things out for themselves. I am starting to put together a online course to go with it to get even more help. And then of course, coaching, we'll help you even further than that. And for that, you can get me on my website, James saliba.com. Or you can find me on LinkedIn, I'm very active on LinkedIn, and I respond to people within within 24 To 48 to 48 hours. If you go there, you'll see I have some free webinars happening every couple of months. So you can join up there. And I'm also on Twitter, so you can reach me in those different areas.

And again, there's a lot of areas, obviously, I will put links in the episode description to help everyone out with that to definitely get a hold of and make sure they can get to the right person. Also, our website does have your awesome profile on there, which I definitely encourage everybody to go and read it. I think it's great profile, in my opinion.

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

I appreciate you, my friend. Thank you for the wonderful conversation, kind of thank you for explaining some of these differences that I think sometimes get lost in translation. I think that this was an important conversation. And I kind of look forward to seeing kind of how this conversation drives others as well.

Great. Thank you very much for having me. I really enjoyed having that discussion.

Yeah, it's always a fun discussion. I definitely could be doing this for hours upon hours if I wanted to. Anything else that you want to leave anyone with before we let you off the hook?

No, I think that's great. If you want to talk to me, find me on LinkedIn or on my website. Email me. I'd love to have a conversation.

Awesome. Perfect. meet you. I enjoyed our conversation and this probably isn't the last time we talk. So thank you