More Than Folding Paper with Ross Symons

Dustin Steffey: 0:00

Welcome Chop nation to another new week, which you all know what that means. Another new exciting episode. I missed you guys. I know it's only been a week but I'm excited to dive right into it introduce our new guest speaker and to provide relevant information so you all know what that means. Let's chop it up Welcome to your top rated global podcast that is your one stop shop for everything entrepreneurship, self development, and smart investment decisions. This podcast is hosted by owner Dr. And creator Dustin Steffey were blessed to have accolades that include a 2022 nomination by the People's Podcast Awards, in the category of business money donated to two amazing causes cystic fibrosis, and the Boys and Girls Club. Lastly, global recognition of gaining top 50 podcast in four countries. Without further ado, let's chop it up. Today is going to be a fun episode. I know we talk a lot about business. I know we talk a lot about investments. I know we talk just a lot about everything within the business and entrepreneurship world. But today's is going to be fun. We're gonna bring some creativity into this and something different. I don't know if you all have heard of origami. But right now I got an expert on that is the pro in origami. So I'm going to introduce our special guest expert in ROSS Simmons Ross. How are you?

Ross Symons: 1:47

Hey, can you man, thanks for having me on the show.

Dustin Steffey: 1:50

Thank you for coming on. I definitely am going to enjoy this. I'm sure our listeners will too. And it's just going to be some fun.

Ross Symons: 1:58

Cool. Well, that's boring as hell,

Dustin Steffey: 2:02

man. I hope not. But if it is still informational.

Ross Symons: 2:06

Cool. Let's do it.

Dustin Steffey: 2:08

So Ross, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Ross Symons: 2:11

So I am. My name is Ross Simmons, I live in Cape Town, South Africa. I grew up in South Africa in Johannesburg moved to Cape Town in 2010. So I've been here for the last sort of 13 years. And I've done a couple of things on my journey. I'm 40 years old now. So I started I studied a few things I studied. I tried to study film, I tried to study design of some kind, I ended up studying computer programming, I've always had a computer in front of me. And I wasn't very good at school. I was I was good at telling the teacher what I thought. And you know, it just developed some sort of problem with authority. So I was always struggling to get my ideas across and just battle with school quite a lot. But always dabbling with weird random things. I mean, I I've been into music for the longest time, always playing with audio programs, on my computer, whatever that looked like whether it was like a little waveform. Trying to make little animations you remember, there's little flipbook animations that used to do is as a kid at school. So I was always distracted with things that I guess you wouldn't really expect the kid to be distracted with. managed to pass school, went and studied for a bit. And I moved to Cape Town with a diploma in computer programming. And I ended up working in advertising as a web developer. So building websites, applications, that sort of thing, which I still dabble with here and there. But I think working in advertising definitely set me up for where I am now. And the origami thing kind of came up when I was about 20, I think was about 21 years old, my brother asked me to learn how to fold an Origami Bird origami crane, and origami if you if you're listening and don't know what it is, it's a Japanese art form, which basically, is the art form of taking a sheet of paper, generally a square sheet of paper, and folding using only folds, no cuts, no glue, no scissors or knives, to create whatever. You can create birds, you can create shoes, you can create whatever I mean, obviously, it's an art form. So it's not the thing you're creating, but an abstraction of that. And for me, yeah, my brother asked me to learn how to fold one of them years ago and the I was about 21 then and I just, you know, it was just something I did. Whenever I had a piece of paper in front of me folded it over and over again. I got really good at folding the crane, which which was the bird that that I first folded and then edging towards I guess 2012 and 2013 I started looking around online started finding books in, you know, stationery stores and libraries for what other designs were out there. There's quite a big origami community scattered around the world. And then is there a couple of works. And there's a lot of tutorials online that you can follow on how to fold a square sheet of paper and paper into anything. And I just wanted to document myself at one point I realized I was doing this every day anyway, I was I just had a piece of paper in front of me, I was looking forward to it when I was supposed to be, you know, building a website or putting an app live in the advertising company I was working for, I'd have my like, project management project manager staring over my shoulder like, Dude, are you going to finish with that piece of paper, so you can put the website live Can I think so? I think my, again, my authoritive issues there were present as well. So I knew that I was into this thing, I knew that it was distracting me from the work I was doing. wouldn't have a problem. I mean, it's not like I became an origami addict. But it was just something I would rather have been doing then then working. And in 2014, I decided I was going to get better at origami, and I was going to document myself doing it. So approach that was I decided to do a full year project dedicated to the art of origami and getting better at it. So I set out to post one different origami or one folded figure every day of the year of 2014. And posted on to Instagram. And it just made sense. Because Instagram at that time. 2014 was you know, just when it started taking off, globally, and it was getting a lot of attention. So for me, I just wanted a digital record of whatever it was I was I was creating. So day one 365, first of January 2014, I posted my first little origami bird and then just continued posting. And again, I mean, it was just something I was doing, I wasn't telling people about it. My following at that stage was, you know, my aunts and uncles and friends 122 like 130 people that that I knew. And I set off and started this project. And about four months into that year, I quit my job, I decided I had some freelance work coming in. So as a web developer and a designer, there's there's quite a lot of things that you can do, as in a freelance capacity in terms of, you know, work. So I was just like, you know, the worst that can happen is I just have to go back and work again for somebody so, but the whole time, I was still building this whole like little origami project. And about eight months, eight months into the project, I was fortunate enough to be featured on Instagram on Instagram account. And that was also back in the day when I said back in the day, it's like nine years ago, but when the Instagram algorithm wasn't as you know, it wasn't as as rigid as it is now it was very much a if you posted at six in the morning, and you happen to be on at six in the morning, you would see that post. So I just posted at seven o'clock every morning figured, you know, most people are getting up between six and seven, first thing they're going to do is pick up the phone. And if they open Instagram, hopefully they see one of my posts. And that kind of worked as a strategy. And going forward, my following slowly started increasing, I got featured by Instagram. And it was around that time that I started dabbling with stop motion animation. So basically, stop motion animation is an animation style where it's pretty much motion photography, where you taking a series of photographs of a whatever it is an object and you moving it in very small increments at once or time after time, and then taking a series of photos becomes an animation and you tell little stories or whatever, just content essentially. And by the end of the year I had close to I think it was like 50,000 followers, which I was like, wow, how the hell did this happen? And that's when brands started approaching me because they saw Okay, cool, this guy's doing something different. He can design pretty much anything out of paper. And he's got this animation style that he's playing with as well. So let's ask him, you know, if you could create some content for us, and that was at the end of 2014 at the end of the project that had finished and I just decided then I was like, You know what, no one else is really doing this on on a level that I am. So let's get better at it and and see how far we can take it and that was Yeah, was nine years ago. And so I've been a full time origami artist. And I guess content creator, I kind of fell into the influencer space a little bit, but I really don't like that word. I don't like that space. I mean, not influencing anyone. We're just creating some some stuff, you know. But I've been fortunate enough to work with some really big brands around the world have worked with Red Bull. I've worked with Paramount Pictures have worked with Disney and Pixar Disney plus. Yeah, and the list goes on. And I think what I have on my side is I'm able to create short form content in a very, I guess, eye catching way. It's and it also taps because origami is something that kids do. So generally it's you don't really associate doing origami with with anything that could be more than that. So when people see that they kind of like wow watch this piece of paper turn into a dragon and the dry I can breathe fire on this pair of shoes and a pair of shoes turned into like, you know, like boxers shoes, or whatever the case is. I mean, that's my branding mind coming up there. But essentially, that's how I make money. That's how I, I've been able to, to live for the past sort of nine years. And now I just connect with with as many creatives around the world via Instagram, I do origami installation. So if brands need, I guess, an origami installation of let's say 1000 butterflies or 100 flowers, I've got a team that I work with, we all design, whatever it is that the brand or the client wants. And I will then show this team of mine how to fold whatever that figure is we fold hundreds of them. And that becomes the installation which gets put up on a wall or in a gallery or in a retail store, whatever the case is. That's the one side and then the the animation and content creation side as well.

Dustin Steffey: 10:58

A lot tone package a lot of talent and a lot of creativity there. A couple of things that came out that I wrote down here. Consistency is key. And in your story, the one big pattern that I saw anyway, and I'm sure you you understand this more than most is, the more consistent you are the more that things take off. And so I saw that kind of within your story, with with your Instagram, with your origami with just about everything that you are talking about. Another thing that came up that kind of alerted me a little bit was the term influencer, which Oh, I'll use it loosely as well, too. It's not it's not the best term to use, right? Because I mean, you're right. Sometimes we feel like we're not influencing people or we feel like what we add value to you isn't really influence. It's just, we're doing what we like. However, I want to kind of take note that you are still an influencer, no matter what because your your work. And what you do, does impact other people. And whether or not they're telling you that they're influenced by you or not is, is irrelevant, because you are influencing people. And a good example of that is just how many people you've built your business to for are getting origami out there or even educated on origami or your work just being shown and flourish your Instagram following just blowing up whatever the case may be you do you do influence in some shape or form. So just wanted to kind of give you credit where credit is due, you know. And then another thing that I wrote down that was kind of key was your tipping point is what I call it. So you're working your normal job. And you're kind of in bodied into this hobby that you like. And all of a sudden, it's just like, Man, I'd rather be doing this than working my nine to five, not to say that the nine to five was bad, or anything along those lines you just recognized ahead of time, where you can add more value. And I just think that that's so super important. Because I think in this day and age, people get stuck. And they forget what they're good at or what they want to do. And they kind of just stay in the role that they're in instead of taking a chance on branching out.

Ross Symons: 13:48

Yeah, absolutely. It's like, I mean, it's a very I would, I have to say it's a privileged position to be and because, you know, I don't know what percent of the world are able to sit in a job that they don't really like, and be like, You know what, I'm gonna go fold paper for a living. I mean, I didn't do it exactly like that. But I recognize that it is something that not everyone would have the opportunity to do. But I think there are practical steps that you can take, regardless of your situation. Maybe I say regardless, but I think there are definitely ways of going about it. The one thing I did was I didn't just quit my job. I mean, it's not like I didn't have any money. I didn't walk out, you know, pulling a zip sign and my boss saying like Max for nothing. As all you know, it wasn't like that at all. I made sure that I built up a relationship and a network of people that should this thing that I wanted to do, be it be a freelancer or start a business, should it not work out that I can still go back to these people and say, Look, this didn't really work out for me. Do you have a job for me? And that was one thing I did. Another thing I did was I saved up enough money just to basically make sure that I had all my bases covered for the next I think I think had about three months of what my current salary was saved up. And I'd saved that up over time. And always, I've been pretty good at saving. So I always have this little, I don't want to say nest egg, but it was just enough to keep me going. And that has just, you know, that's just a habit that I got into just in case because you don't know it's a rainy day fund, you don't know what's going to happen, you also don't know when you want to make a drastic decision, like quitting your job, or whatever the case is. So there are definitely those things that you can that anyone who's sitting in a job that they don't like, and who is, you know, watching videos on how to make shoes, or watching woodwork videos, or, you know, trying to create content on the side or making animations, stuff that it one thing that always just sat with me was try and pay attention to the thing that or listen to the thing that you are doing when you're supposed to be working. So if that whatever that thing is, like, for me, it was just happened to be origami. So and I paid attention to it, I just I had also had the guts to go, Okay, well, let's see how far I can push this thing. And I think that as as a creative business owner, you have to take that chance. And you just owe it to yourself, because you can look back 10 years from now 20 years from now and be like what Damn, I could have actually really done something, I could have done something different. And not to say that it's too late, but you could have saved yourself a lot of time. So that was just always for me, you know, in the back of my mind, always been able to go back to work if I did need to, fortunately, I haven't had to, I've done some, you know, some web development stuff on the side just to pay the bills, when there's there's not too much work coming in. And I just, I just did to do something different. And no one sets out to become an origami artist, or maybe even a stop motion animator, or content creator, for that matter. It just, I just worked out cool. That's the space I'm in. And I just started doing as much as possible. And I maintain that, you know, just keep on like you say consistency, just making sure that I'm always creating, making sure I for lack of fully knowing what my purpose is. I mean, I don't think I've ever really searched for a purpose. But if I had to link that to something it would be to create, I'm here to make things I'm here to make. Whether it's conversation, or origami, or animations or content, whatever the case is, and I just dedicate my time when I don't know what to do. And then when there's not a lot of work going on, I'm like, let me just make something. And that kind of gets me out what gets something out and pushes me forward to the next step.

Dustin Steffey: 17:38

You've built something amazing here, too. I mean, as you said, prior to this, you you've had, you've been afforded the ability to work for big companies doing what you love, like Red Bull, like Disney, Sony converse, I mean, you've gotten to do some fun things that a lot of people dream up. So I mean, it's been rewarding, like to branch out, actually, in my opinion, looking at what you're doing. And it's paid off. Creativity, I think is something that separates us out from technology and computers, right, like the human aspect of creativity, you can't get it? Well, I say this loosely, you can get a computer to do it. But you have to program and code it to do it. Right. Whereas you humans can free things. So there's a lot of like off the cuff with creative things that you can do. And so that kind of leads me into a question for you, which is, with technology advancing as fast as it is, and creativity being so important. Do you see a threat to human creativity with AI coming out or any of this new technology? Like what's your take on that?

Ross Symons: 19:03

I think that I've always just approached any technology, any new technology, particularly as a, something I can try to understand something I can potentially be friends with and maybe use in whatever I'm doing. I've never, I've never thought okay, cool. Well, you know, here comes this new camera or here comes AI and it's going to threaten the work that I do i know that i A lot of people don't particularly creative people don't share that sentiments. I've had many conversations with with a lot of creatives and artists who they genuinely feel like this is the end for them, designers and 3d animators and artists, and I understand where they're coming from, but I would rather and I'm not saying that it's not going to happen. I'm not saying that all the work I do is a you know it's you can't imitate it or a note He's neck technology is going to be able to do what I can do better than me, I will never say that, because I've seen, you know, I've seen the exact opposite. But I would rather learn and understand how these tools work, and add them into my workflow in my process, so that I can advance and I can show others how it's potentially possible to use this kind of technology. So do I see it as a threat not at all, I see it as a, I see it as a means to create something new, put some some very unique stuff out into the world. And I and there's a lot of people on Instagram, I mean, when I started with the whole origami thing I was connecting with, firstly, the origami community on Instagram, and anyone starting anything will be you know, you'll find your your little, your tribe, on Instagram, it's like with anything, you know, whether you into vaping, or tattoos or shoes or whatever, there's little, these little clusters, these little sub groups that are there. And I'm now connecting with the augmented reality and virtual reality and the AI community. And it's amazing, because it's taken me all the way back to like how I felt at the beginning of my, I guess my digital journey, which has been through origami, because a lot of this stuff is it's all centered around these new tools that are now available and the rate at which you can create stuff, and people are getting super excited about it. And I just want to be part of that energy. I want to be part of that excitement, because it's to me, it just makes sense. And again, I'm I'm speaking for myself and the people that I'm connecting with and speaking to feel the same. We're having the same conversation. But does it's not everyone sends them in for sure. I mean, there was an Instagram post I posted a couple of weeks ago, I was about two months ago, what origami, it was like what origami cars would look like. So if you had to take origami, and blend them with like a Hummer or a BMW or a Ferrari, using AI to feed that through, you know, whatever text to image generation program, I think I was using mid journey at that stage. And yeah, I got a lot of people messaging me saying, you know, dude, been following you for the last eight years now. But I'm out I can't believe you're supporting this system and can't believe you using it. And I get it. I understand. It's not for everybody. But, you know, there was a quote, I read and I've been saying this quite a lot is resisting technology doesn't slow its progress. So you can hate it all you like but it's like it's, you know, it's gonna leave you in the dirt so miners will understand it know that it's going to be the future and and just try and put it into your workflow. That's that's just how I think about it.

Dustin Steffey: 22:42

And we will be right back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by speakeasy tattoo company located in Fernley, Nevada, that's at 420 East Main Street Fernley Nevada. There's nobody else I'd rather go to when it comes to my tattoo needs, between the experience of the whole staff, the creativity, the knowledge, and the overall dedication to making sure that your piece looks good. There's no better tattoo parlor than speakeasy tattoo company. So please, if you haven't done so already, check them out at www dot Speak Easy. Tat CO that's Speak Easy, T A T T c o.com. and book an appointment today. Hello, chop nation, I hope all of you are enjoying the guests and content we share weekly. Now, I need a favor from all of you. There's a ton that goes into making it successful podcast. And most of this can't be done without your support. So please head on over to your favorite social media platform. And please follow us. This is important so we can communicate important updates to all of you. Also, we love hearing from all of you. So please drop us a comment and let us know how we are doing. Lastly, if you haven't left us a five star review yet, please head on over to your favorite platform that you listen to your podcasts on and drop us a review. We really do appreciate all of you and the continued support as we look forward to dropping more fun and relevant content. Another thing that came up that I think is so critically important for this podcast and for you, as you've done is you've had all these big brands approached you to do origami for them. How did you get in the door with some of these big businesses like for my small entrepreneurs that kind of don't know how to get in and blow up a little bit you have. So what's the secret? Is there a secret or did it just happen?

Ross Symons: 24:57

And that old thing I you know Are they for me, it was, it wasn't one thing, I think my, my attitude just remained very positive. I, you know, there were times where I was running out of money. And I was like, whoo, this is getting, you know, bad now, but all I would do in those times was like, just make stuff I would make and put out making put out making put out and try and connect with, I mean, the number of podcasts, the number of agencies, the number of creatives and brands and companies that I sent my work to is staggering. I remember keeping a list of like 50 agencies that I sent my stuff off to in New York, and then la in London, and Sydney. So I was just always, in the process of sending my stuff out. And even though I didn't get much of a response directly down the line, someone would say, hey, you know, we saw your stuff here, and we'd love to work with you on this project. But I just felt that, you know, just over time, using the channels that I had available to me, and sticking to my strengths, not there were times when I thought okay, cool, well, I'm gonna do this. An example is I was into hobby electronics for quite a while, like Arduino and Raspberry Pi, and whatever, it was just a very, I guess, small group of well, it's now it's like a quite a big thing. But I tried to go down that route. And I tried to create a business or see how I could blend that into what I was doing. And it didn't really work but and I realized in that moment, or during that time that I needed to stick to what I was kind of good at and what I was known for, and then see slowly how I can branch off from that in the same way that I'm doing it now with with AI and virtual reality. And that whole space, I tried it with the NFT thing. I you know, I tried to get into creating NF T's and because that was, you know, that was the thing before AI. And I think that just trying those things and trying to just understand whether they work for me or not, and seeing if I could get it, you know, into my workflow and workflow and process that I again, it was just something I'd always done. But if you're starting out in business, and you're starting out a creative venture, just you have to be patient. That's something that that's something you really have to skill that you have to learn patience, tenacity and consistency. Just keep putting it out there and and just tell people tell everybody what you're doing. I remember telling people that I was an artist, like, there's, there's a weird line where you kind of like you go from working for somebody to becoming a freelancer or an entrepreneur or an artist where you have to start calling yourself that and what, you know, at what point do you decide that that is, and the sooner the sooner I did that, the sooner I was like, okay, cool. I'm an artist now. And when people asked me, What do I do, I'm an artist, I still didn't believe it. At the time, I was like, I'm not an artist. I'm just, you know, I'm just telling people this because just so that I can always add manifest this whole, I guess, persona that maybe not persona, but just this idea of cool, I want to be an artist, and I'm doing creative work. So I managed to stop calling myself an artist. And now I'm sitting on a podcast talking to you as an artist, and a creative entrepreneur. So it's like, and I tell people that I'm like, Yeah, I'm a creative entrepreneur started this thing, do this, I've got this brand. So just tell people what you're doing. And some people are gonna love your stuff. And some people are gonna hate your stuff. Try and focus on the positive feedback, but also listen to where the negative feedback is coming from. And surround yourself with people that are going to tell you the truth. Because I think that that's also something that a lot of people get a little bit wrong, they come up with this idea, everyone around them can see that they're so excited about this thing. And they're just like, oh, man, I'm gonna do this thing. But they know that maybe they're a little bit naive. And everyone around them is like, yeah, cool, man. Well, good luck with that. But if those people aren't telling you the truth and saying, listen, maybe you need to rethink this, or maybe is there no other way that you can go about doing this? Then you just end up, you know, lying to yourself and believing that you can? Yeah, I mean, I'm all about self belief. And I'm all about going to go and go do the thing and make it happen. But honesty with yourself and honesty from the people around you is critically essential as well.

Dustin Steffey: 29:17

That was a lot to unpackage there, too. I mean, there was a lot of things I wrote down in in that. So basically, to recap that just for everyone that's listening, visibility is key. And Ross made himself visible. He got his work out to as many people as he could. And that snowballed into something positive there, which leads into using your resources. So whatever resources you have, use it tell everybody like he said, I think that's super critically important. Stay positive. Yes, I think that's a humongous one because there are times even for me in this podcast and even for you, I'm sure awesome. Like, whereas like, I don't know, if I'm going to make it, I, I'm, I don't know, if if I can put food on the table, I might have to do something different. Whatever the case may be where there's a will, there's a way to stay positive. I'm slow and steady wins the race. I mean, that's been something I've been told since I came out of the womb. So I think that's critically important. And most importantly, I feel you brought this up to patients is key, like being patient, and I'm not not the most patient person. But I've learned over time, through having my daughter and this podcast like, Patience. Patience is important. You develop it, it's a skill. And for some, it's hard. For others. It's easy, but whatever the case may be, Patience is important. I'm a, I'm a Star Wars buff. So everything that has been brought up has reminded me of like the Mandalorian. Right, you know, like, yeah, so. So, in the late, great Mandalorian, I'm going to go ahead and use that soundboard right now. This is the way we go. That's the way and yes, this is the way. So I'm, I'm pretty, pretty excited about that. Because I think right there, those just that little three to five minute blurb right there is so critically important for anyone that's going into entrepreneurship, or that is in entrepreneurship, that is really trying to find that success. So Ross, I appreciate you bringing your pizzazz into that. Because I think the more people say the more important it is to just kind of write those down, write a note every day, like stay positive, Do this, do that one thing at a time focus. Exactly.

Ross Symons: 31:55

And also, if it feels kind of silly, because, you know, it does feel, you know, when you when you like fake it till you make it and you just keep being positive, like it comes a point where you just like can't do the shit anymore. Um, like, you know, it gets difficult. But I also think that you you've got, like I said, Be honest with yourself, and let the people around you be honest with you as well. But also that whole giving up thing, I think that sometimes, like I said, I had to go back and do you know, website work at some point when they, you know, there wasn't much it was actually just before COVID hit. So there wasn't much content creation work going on. But people needed websites, people needed stuff to get done on on the internet. So I had that skill, fortunately, and I humbled up and just decided cool, I'm gonna put my name out there again for that. And that kind of carried me through for the for the year and a half that that COVID was here. And I bring that up as an example. Because I didn't feel like I had given up on my dream of being a freelancer or entrepreneur, or creative entrepreneur or artist at all. I just knew that that was a means to an end. And I think that you can do that as an entrepreneur in the meantime as well. So make sure that the skills that you have, I mean, sometimes you just got to take a chance and be like, You know what, I need to put the next two, three months of all my time into this, otherwise, it's not going to survive. But if you have the luxury of having money coming in from somewhere else, keep the other thing that you have as a side hustle. If it's your main gig, then find another way to supplement your income, if you can, I mean that at the end of the day, it's just about it's money that needs to keep you going. And money, believe it or not, is very inspirational, like it'll keep you going like if you if you know that you've got money, I found this again, with when I was doing web development work was like the work that I knew I didn't have to worry too much about the bit of money that was coming in. And I could focus more creatively on the other things that I wanted to do. And as a result of that, more work started coming in on the content creation animation side. So yeah, I mean, that's just a bit of bit of advice there. Just don't give up on your dream. But also don't think that just because you have to go do the old thing that you did or something else for the next three or four months or a year that you've given up on it. If you believe enough in it, then it will happen. But just yeah. Just take it easy on yourself. Get out of your own way and and be patient as well. Yeah.

Dustin Steffey: 34:20

You brought up a good point with money. Most entrepreneurs, the biggest the biggest thing I hear is they're trying to make enough money to live a comfortable lifestyle. Right. But I think that's such a broad thing, because what's comfort, what's comfort mean to you? Everybody's definition of comfort is different. I mean, if I'm living, check to check but I'm living is that comfort? Is that comfort or is comfort having a half a million dollars in the bank account, you know what I mean? So with that being said, as an entrepreneur for you Has it taught you, especially in this day and age where inflation is very real has it taught you how to manage your money better, like when you quit your nine to five, and you went to this, I'm pretty certain you were in a comfort, comfortable lifestyle with that nine to five, and then shifting over to this, you are your own boss, which means you're your own finance person as well, too. How exactly? How did that shift look for you? And how did you adjust to how did you get comfortable? Really, I mean, you and I didn't talk about like, if you're a millionaire, and I may not know, maybe you are a millionaire, but like obvious, I mean, either, don't worry. But obviously there is a sort of kind of skill that you have to have in managing money to make this work in the key being an entrepreneur, how does that look for you?

Ross Symons: 35:59

I think something I've always been very good at. And whether it's something I learned from, you know, my family or skill that I picked up along the way it was, I always knew how to keep a little bit on the side, you know, just have a little bit saved have enough. And, and also just be humble when you know, if you need to ask for money, or if you need to, hopefully, that you've created an environment around yourself where you do have some I'm not saying having access to someone else's money. But if you need to go sleep on someone else's couch, because you can't afford the rent, make sure that you have at least two or three people whose couch you can go sleep on, you know, and that is that that's how he listened to a lot of the Silicon Valley stories like those guys, they eat noodles, and ramen and slept on somebody's couch for years sometimes. And not to say that that's how drastic it has to be. And there's also this, this idea around, you know, being an entrepreneur and money and because entrepreneurship essentially is about starting your own business and making as much money as possible. You know, it's you can add purpose and cause and whatever to it. But the main goal of any of any journey on in that space is to make money. And maybe you've got this goal of that cool, well, this is what I'm what I'm aiming at, and what I want to achieve with my life in terms of finances, but I don't think that it's that it's a real like, for me, it's not a reality, it's not, it's not something that okay, cool, when I hit a million dollars in my bank account, that is when x fill it in, when I'm going to be happy when I'm going to be satisfied when I find my purpose. And I think there is this misconception of that. I'm not saying that, because I've reached that, but I just approached money with a very see. And I don't know if this is like everyone's way of going about it. But the way I see money, I see it as a resource and an energy and, and sometimes a friend, because it's a friend that sometimes I see quite regularly and it's nice to hang out with them. And we, you know, talk shit. And that's great. And sometimes he's not there. And sometimes like I miss him. And the thing is, I know that I just need to be comfortable with who I am and comfortable enough to know that at some point, he will come back. And treating it like that is it might seem a little bit childish and naive. But it honestly has worked for me, I just see it as this this energy, this entity that just comes and goes sometimes sometimes I make a lot of money and I'm able to save it. I treated with respect when it does come in, I celebrated I'm like cool, this is amazing. But just knowing that, regardless of what it feels like now when look, if you're really running out of money, and you need to take a loan, I mean, that's what you need to do. That's that's the reality of the situation. But I think that you can avoid that by just cutting back on a couple of things in your life, you like well, eating out a little bit too much or can't afford to go do the holiday again, or whatever the case is just finding places in there's another quote that I really love it's stealing. already put it it was you have to learn to steal time from comfort. And when you are comfortable is when you have enough resources, you've got enough money, you got some money in the bank works coming in. And it's great. And it's what you're doing in that time. And how you steal more time from that comfortable space to set your life up so that you don't arrive in that situation again, down the line where you don't have any more money and you run out of time. And you now go and you start freaking out and it's stressful and you have anxiety and these these are normal Western problems. You know, these are things that I speak to so many people about not enough money, too much stress, too much anxiety constantly. Just there's a whole bunch of stuff that that kind of piles on as a result of that. But just learning how to live I guess live not trying to just keep up with the Joneses. And you know there's that whole analogy. There's always going to be more to get and you're never fully going to be satisfied or you're never going to be permanently satisfied with your situation unless you are okay with who you are. I mean, I can go go down this hole, you know, the journey that I've done internally and spiritually, almost like sorting out my relationship with myself, I think that was the biggest favor I've ever done for myself, I'm still on the path. And I'm still I don't get things right all the time. But knowing what I'm good at knowing what I'm not so good at, and working towards trying to be better than I was yesterday. And that's definitely helped me, I will admit it, it's helped me understand money a little bit better. It's helped me understand relationships with people. And I think all of that kind of filters into the same thing. And, yeah, just, you know how some people approach the whole thing and like this whole hustle culture, and you got to get the shit done, you got to be working 16 hours a day, and you got to be stressed out and you can't can't be sleeping, I think that's something that we've all just bought into, for whatever reason. And I just choose not to, because it, I don't think it serves anybody, especially being a creative person myself, you know, like, I need time to sit and do nothing for long periods of time, because, and in those periods, I need to make sure that I'm relaxed, because I'm not, ideas are not going to rock up. And if ideas don't rock up, money is not going to rock up. So that's just how I approach it. I'm kind of like, just relax, chill out, you know, leave some time for myself. And don't stress and the times we think I need to be working, or we feel I'm forcing myself to do stuff. That's when I just step back a bit and just say, okay, cool. Let me go, you know, do a yoga session or drink a beer or something, and just relax and ease into the day.

Dustin Steffey: 41:37

Yeah, I think everybody has a different relationship with money, or I my relationship with money is different than your relationship with money. But the fact of the matter, like you brought up is, you have to learn, like you said, to steal time, from comfort, to be able to balance things out and make things work. Pride is another thing that I wrote down, that was a big word that I wrote down in what you were discussing, you have to set aside your pride, to be able to ask for help if you do need help, because success isn't created off of your pride success is created off of well, being able to ask for help and have others in the fold. So I don't know any single entrepreneurship. Or I'm sorry, I don't know, any single entrepreneur that has done it completely and totally on their own. I haven't met one yet. So there's always someone that is an inspiration or help or whatever the case may be. So that's some good important stuff there. I appreciate you talking about that. And then that journey a little bit. Something that came up question that came up from one of the listeners was, they're using social media to be able to drive their business, however, they're not getting that reach that they want. And it seems like you kind of have created that reach what are some? What are some key suggestions that you may have? For the listeners that are like looking to expand their social media to get that reach to really drive their business?

Ross Symons: 43:17

To be honest, for me, I think it was I, I didn't really focus too much on, you know, how do I grow this thing? How does it get bigger, it just organically just happened. And I think a large part of it was firstly connecting with the smaller community, which was the origami community, and that spilled over into the local Instagram community, which was like origami, or sorry, the Instagram, Cape Town and Instagram, South Africa, and it just kind of grew from there. So start small, you know, everybody wants to launch a product and have you know, 1000 followers by the end of the day, and then by the end of the week, 10,000. And then they you know, the killing of two sales by the end of the month, that that's, that doesn't happen. Maybe it does maybe write some piece of AI code that, you know, spills out into the world and causes that that's cool. That's, that's amazing. But for the most part for 99% of people, I think it's it is a long, hard, it's a struggle. And it doesn't have to be I say struggle. It doesn't have to be a negative struggle like struggle to me I enjoy struggle. Sometimes I think that that I've been, you know, back to the whole stealing comfort from stealing time from comfort. Being uncomfortable is a sign for me that I'm growing a sign that I am progressing in some way. And I am learning along the way as well. But in terms of putting stuff out there just you it's also very, it's this whole thing of you know, you think that okay, cool. Well, if as soon as I get 10,000 followers, it's the same as the money thing. As soon as I get money, then I'll be happy. As soon as I get 10,000 followers, then I'll start making more money, but it doesn't work like that. And something I got told early on was before anything sort of happened for me If someone said just focus on your they've got that whole 1000 true fans analogy, which is focused on the people that started following you first, that support what you do that always asking you questions about what you're doing, don't ignore them, regardless of who you think they are. Because it's those people that are going to support you when you decide to change. Or when you decide that you know what, this is not really, for me. So focus have to have that person or that group of people in mind, top of mind all the time. I mean, it's easy to think, okay, cool, I just want to reach out to a million people, because at the end, my life is going to be better, then I'm going to sell more, then I'm gonna make more money. But that is also not a reality. And it's also I mean, it's a very attractive thing, it's like, it's nice to have a little blue tick, and, you know, like 10 million followers on your Instagram profile, because it feeds your ego on it on multiple levels. And that also can turn into money if you know how to do it properly. But I know people who have 5000 followers on Instagram who are killing it, and I know people that have a million followers and don't know how to make money from it. So you know, it's, it's a very, I guess, it comes down to you as a as a person and how you want to approach the whole thing, but focus on the people that have started supporting you from the beginning, and try and develop a an understanding of what it is they want from you, and focus on that thing, and produce more of that, because that is how if somebody wants something from you, chances are two people that they know, also want the same thing. And if you enjoy what you're doing, plus people that you know, and don't really know, want to buy something from you or want to get something from you, then you're doing something right. But there's this idea of Oh, yeah, 100,000 followers, you must be killing it, you must be making a lot of money. It's like, No, it's not like that at all. And it's a misconception, but not to say that you shouldn't, you know, try and gain a following. If you want to do like the technical hardcore, like, go down and really try and grow your audience that that comes down to being on Instagram all the time. Interacting with a smaller community, liking posts, commenting on posts, sharing people's stuff, reaching out to people via the DMS and saying, Hey, I really enjoy which I've been asking questions that are not like, Hey, do you want to cola? Because that the the number of messages I get like, do you want me to cola? Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, what's, what are we going to do? Now? Like? Well, I was hoping that, you know, maybe you had an idea of how we could make some like, Look, if you've approached me to come up with an idea, then you asked me to work for nothing. And, you know, if you want me for my whatever, my little bit of influence that you think I have, then you've come to the wrong place. But if somebody comes to me and says, Hey, listen, I love what you're doing here. And I this has happened to me recently. I love what you're doing here. And I would love to work with you. Here's an idea that I have. Are you keen to do it? Then it's like, of course, yeah. I'd love to entertain that. And, you know, if it does turn into money or something, then it's like, cool. But if it doesn't, then no big deal.

Dustin Steffey: 47:57

So Ross, the big thing that I have right now is do you want to collab with me?

Ross Symons: 48:03

Let's go out, man. What's your idea?

Dustin Steffey: 48:05

Oh, man, I have millions of them. Let's do it. Where do we start? But no, in all actuality, I relate with you, which is I get the messages to do you want to collab? And it's like, okay, what added value do you bring to the table for us to be able to collab so what I'm looking for, and a good example is what you and I are doing right now, I have a different reach from what your reach is. So us collabing on my podcast, and given these knowledge bombs to not only my listeners, but also hosting this for your for your following is going to create a different avenue for us to create a win, win and answer questions and to help others. So for me, it's all about what value do you bring to the table? For us to have a successful collab? If you're going to approach me and be like, do you want to collab? My first initial response is going to be no, because you're not, you're not giving me any value like, like, Give me something give me something to run off of where it's enticing for us to be able to create a collab together. So I agree with that statement that you made. And I empathize with you. Because I know I get a million messages that say that and it's like, okay, cool. So what are we doing?

Ross Symons: 49:26

Exactly. But yeah, I mean, that although that is like I said, you really do have to put yourself out there and you have to ask but don't just ask because you think that they are going to respond whoever that person is. Another thing on the opposite end of it is also just realize that those people that you're reaching out to, regardless of who it is, let's say there's somebody in the sneaker space that has a couple of 100,000 followers and you really admire what they're doing. And you this up and coming sneaker head and you want to do something with them, whatever First, you do genuinely have an idea. And you're super humble and you're like, cool, I'm going to come up with this pitch and do the whole thing, reach out to them. Because you must remember that at the end of that DM is just one person, you know, although it's a company, maybe, but at the end of the day, it's one person that you're dealing with and build a relationship with that person. And building a relationship doesn't mean that you are going to get something from it. But be genuine about it, start a conversation, say, this is what I'm doing. If at some point, there is something that I can contribute towards, or maybe in this place, and we can meet up whatever do that, that is something that I think that not enough, not enough people do. But just have zero expectation. I think expectation is also another thing that you've also got to put aside, it's kind of like, just sending your work and putting your work up and expecting it to, you know, draw more followers or work or money into your bank account. I think that that is a big flaw. And being you know, in the millennial space, like, that's the disease of our time, man is expectation and an entitlement. It's like, oh, well, I've got this. So I deserve that. And then you can bitch and moan and kick and scream about like a little kid as much as you like, but it doesn't entitle you to anything, you have to do the work. And the work is, whatever it looks like from from your end, it's like it's being humble, just sticking to your craft, whatever your craft is getting good at it, until people started approaching you. That's, that's one thing I did, I didn't do it actively, it was just something that I happened to do, I just focused so much on getting better at this thing. Because I just obviously had this thing inside of me, it's like, I just want to get better at this thing. And I had enough of an interest in it, to want to do it more and more and more. So whether it was holding a piece of paper, or creating an animation or making a piece of music, whatever it was, I did, I just was obsessed with getting better at it for myself, you know, regardless of what feedback I was getting, it was nice to get feedback. It's nice to have a couple of 1000 followers, you know, the next day, in your account, but, and I tried very hard not to let those metrics drive me. And I think that that served me well, up until now.

Dustin Steffey: 52:12

You know, you bring up a good point because I feel expectation leads to pride. And I'm guilty of this, because when I graduated with my undergrad, me being a millennial, and all as you so kindly stated. I, I thought and I think this leads back to high school, so I'll get into it. But I thought after I graduated with my undergrad, I was going to make buku money. And I it was an expectation that I would, I would make set money. But what I didn't realize was there that getting my education was a key puzzle piece, to the greater puzzle of getting that experience within said industry to be able to make that money. Now in my older age, I understand it and get it. But at that time, it's funny that you brought that up because I did expect more than I think I deserved right. And I think we're conditioned in that way to be honest with you ever asked me because in high school, when I was in high school, at least I don't know how it is now, they were driving the point, if you go to college, you'll make X amount. And if you get your Masters, you'll make X amount. And if you get your doctorate, you'll make X amount. So they kind of drove that into your brain a little bit to create that entitlement. I also think entitlement leads to pride as well, too. And man did I have a big ass chip on my shoulder when I graduated. But, I mean, these are all valid points. And these are all very real points. And so I just I wanted to bring kind of some of my, some of my experience into that because I too did fall for that bug. But I do realize now, it it isn't about the education. It isn't about pride. It isn't about any of that. It's about consistency. It's about continuing to do the right things all the time. And eventually, if you keep going, things will fall into place. There's always something that falls into place. It may not be instant gratification because that's the culture we're in right now. Let's be realistic, instant gratification. It isn't instinct gratification. You have to put the work in and take the time to do it and perfect your craft before you can move forward.

Ross Symons: 54:39

Yeah, exactly for fall in love with making fall in love with the process fall in love with the journey because if you don't and you know I said fall in love with it seems like this. Boy, you've got to find your passion and you've got to that's also another whole loaded sort of school of thought like you've got to find the thing that would like you wake up I don't wake up in the morning and go, Oh man, I get to fold some paper today, I get to animate some shit. It's like this. Sometimes I am excited about jobs. But it's I honestly don't wake up feeling like that. i There is mornings where I wake up and I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna make something today. I'm not even sure what it is. But I get this urgency to make something and then I'd sit down the path of cool. Can I keep this inspiration going, can I fall asleep tonight, wake up tomorrow morning with the same thing still have the idea and still keep on doing that. And then attempt to make that thing. And when work comes in, it's kind of like, okay, that gives my, I guess my inspiration a bit of time to you no build up again. Because then I'm focused on the job, and the work and I need to get it done. And the times where I'm working and I've got like long stretches of six, seven week jobs where, at the end of it, I feel inspired, I'm tired, but I feel like okay, cool. Well, I get a chance to make something. Next, make something that comes from me, that doesn't necessarily sometimes there's jobs where I'm just like, wow, this is amazing. I did, I did a job for the Pixar or Disney plus job, where I had to, they wanted to make an origami version of the stop frame animation as well with the up house, you know, the little house from with the balloons and whatever. Yeah, I

Dustin Steffey: 56:13

love that house. My daughter does too. Yeah, it's an

Ross Symons: 56:16

IT everyone loves the house. And they asked me to do it because they were launching up onto Disney plus, it was just like this resurgence of the content. And you know, for me, that was just an amazing job. Because it was something I grew up with something I watched many, many times, and I loved it. So sometimes you get those jobs, where it's just full passion, then you just like, and that's again, that's just a graceful thing that happens. But so you know, falling in love with the process and really waking up every day. And and I think entrepreneurs sometimes do this as well, they were they maybe convinced themselves that they love the hustle, they love going to bed at like 2am in the morning, waking up at six and then just grinding again. Bullshit, you are not a functioning or fully functioning human being if you're doing that day in and day out. And I know there's a lot of people that that are really promoting and they driving this whole hustle culture. And I think it's it's a it's a problem. Because no one is really because specially they're not seeing the instant gratification. They're not getting the results that come from a place of expectation and privilege. And women are privileged but it expectation and word lasted now anyway, it's you just hope that this happens all the time. And as a result of that, when the thing doesn't come to you straight away, then you get all bummed out and you're like, Oh, well, you know, then the world's the problem. And it's nothing that you're doing. Obviously, you deserve to get all this you you have a doctorate in or maybe not a doctorate, but you have some qualification that you've been led to believe is going to allow you a certain amount of money and also a specific lifestyle. But how many people does that happen for and if what I was going to say about that whole thing is, if you look at the amount of student debt in America, I mean, that's something that just is it's crazy. So if if they were telling everyone at schools, you know, dipping into the conspiracy theory, but like if they're telling everybody at school, they're driving this whole, like, you must go and study, you have to go do this thing, but the only way you can study is by taking a student loan, because they know down the line, that that that has to be paid back how many people are in like debt and will be in debt for the rest of their lives because of the thing they went and studied. And they're not even using that qualification now, I'm wondering what is? Yeah, there we go. You got a man, it's like, it's, to me, it's just like that is a, it's a clear cut case of like, well, what is actually going on here, I think it brings massive bell of urgency to, you know, to fix the education system for one. And, and also we're not in the Industrial Revolution anymore. So getting a job as typist or getting a job as even a lawyer or a doctor, those jobs are not going to be there. With you know, back to what we were saying about AI and and that is going to change things and going forward, you need to be on the lookout for the machine that's going to replace either replace your job or it might not be I've read a lot of sort of comments from people that are saying in different industries that it's not the AI that's going to replace your job. That's the person who has the same qualification or skills as you that has decided to use and implement AI into their process, that person is going to take your job. And when you have an engineer that comes in an engineer that's fresh out of school, but you have an engineer that's fresh out of school that has this understanding of AI and how he can or she can use that to better the company, that person is going to get the job hands down. So don't be scared of AI be scared not to understand it. You know that's that just my thoughts on that.

Dustin Steffey: 1:00:02

I think I'm gonna take that as the key knowledge bomb of that episode is don't be scared to learn about other things just because you think it's going to take your job away or whatever, embrace it, and see if you can leverage it to move forward and change with the times that are changing. So, Ross, I have one last question for you, which is, we've had all these interesting knowledge bombs. We've had great conversation, people resonate with people, if they want to get a hold of you, what's a good way to get a hold of you?

Ross Symons: 1:00:39

Yeah, so Instagram, if you're on Instagram, my Instagram account is white on rice. That's the brand that I run that essentially runs a little mini origami agency. white on rice. Whites, you can Google Watson rice origami, my website will come up. I'm on Facebook. If you want to get ahold of me, I'm Ross at white dash on rice.com. And, yeah, I'm on LinkedIn as well. So we can chat there. But I answer all my comments, I answer all the DMS that I get. And I look forward to speaking to people that have you know, whether it's an idea or they just want to find out something or maybe I can help in some way. So I'm always keen to chat to people. So yeah, you can find me there.

Dustin Steffey: 1:01:24

Well, you obviously know I'm keen to chat with people. I chat with people for a living.

Ross Symons: 1:01:29

It's amazing. No, it's a cool job man. And, and your your shows really cool. Like I really liked the questions that you asked. It's not It's not every day that I have to think I'm like, Okay, well, that's a interesting way of looking at it. So yeah, thank you for your honesty and energy. It's been a really cool chat.

Dustin Steffey: 1:01:45

Thank you for coming on. Thank you for being a creative that comes on and she's really passionate about what they do and you have the experience to back it and kind of have the knowledge to answer the hard questions. So thank you for coming on.

Ross Symons: 1:01:59

Yeah, anytime